Audio recording of Dr Mary Barton speaking to a panel representing the British Eugenics Society.
On 3 December 1958 Dr Mary Barton was interviewed by a panel representing the British Eugenics Society, including Dr Bernard Sandler.
The Wellcome Collection contains two items for this interview:
one (SA/EUG/D/251/2) for the original recording (a single reel of audiotape),
and one (SA/EUG/D/251/2a) for the digitized copy of that recording.
The Wellcome Collection says that this work is licensed under the Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0 International (CC BY-NC 4.0) licence,
although it's not clear whether Mary Barton transferred her copyright.
It will be in the public domain in 2061 (70 years after Mary Barton's death).
Participants:
MB: Dr Mary Barton
Q1: female interviewer
Q2: male interviewer (Bernard Sandler?)
Ellipsis […] have been used in the transcription below to indicate where the audio recording is not clear enough to transcribe accurately.
Transcription
'''Q1:''' Track 1, Dr Barton.
'''Q2:''' […] In the first place the question — we told you, I think, what we are hoping we can do here — we are a fact-gathering body […] we are eminently short of facts […] and there's the possibility that […] might metamorphose into some sort of facts […] the questionnaire which was sent to you is not intended to be in final form, it's mostly to give you a kind of idea of what we've had in mind […] Will we work through this?
'''MB:''' Yes, I think so.
'''Q2:''' I'm afraid so far I haven't been able to get rid of the office question mark.
'''MB:''' No.
'''Q2:''' May I leap to the top of the questionnaire then? How many…?
'''MB:''' Well the first case I did was in 1940, and the first two or three years it was… very few came. The oldest child I've got is 18.
'''Q2:''' Ah you have got an eighteen year-old?
'''MB:''' I've got an eighteen year old.
[…]
'''MB:''' The most interesting thing about it is the Doctor wrote to me about it, I didn't. I don’t follow up my cases at all. Not from scientific angles — if they like to come to see me I'm delighted. But the Doctor wrote to me and said "perhaps you would like to know that Miss [inaudible]". That's how I got to know about her.
'''Q2:''' That's a good beginning for AID number one […]. And your patients come from?
'''MB:''' I should say almost entirely from doctors.
'''Q2:''' Ah they do? How?
'''MB:''' There are societies; some of the family planning clinics; some of the marriage guidance councils — yes, I know I'm not allowed to say "Marriage Guidance Council", but people who deal with Marriage Guidance Council; marriage guidance problems; hospitals; and very rarely they write to the paper for this information. I don’t mean newspapers, I mean things like ''Women’s Journal''.
'''Q2:''' Yes, but mainly it's through medical channels?
'''MB:''' Almost entirely, yes.
'''Q2:''' And how do you select those with whom you are working?
'''MB:''' Well, you see they are all automatically selected by the fact they talk to their family doctor first aren't they? And no family doctor would send a patient to see someone else about that kind of thing unless they needed to. Sometimes we have to turn them down even then, but not all.
'''Q1:''' Can we interject a question? If you don't mind.
'''Q2:''' Of course, please.
'''Q1:''' May I ask if […] has come from has changed in any way over the years past?
'''MB:''' Do you mean did the early ones—
'''Q1:''' thinking back to your early ones […]
[…]
'''MB:''' Oh yes dear, I think so Dr [?Jakim], my impression is that the early ones were not ?? at all but the result of distress on our part, not knowing what to do with these people. And I think it was only after we published the first paper, and the general furore had died down, and a few people began to think it had something in it, that we were simply filled with […]
'''Q3:''' When did you publish the first paper?
'''MB:''' I believe it was 1945. The only one that I’ve published.
'''Q3:''' And do at all have have a reprint to give me?
'''MB:''' I’ve got one and you’re not having it! You can have it copied but don't lose it, it’s the only one I’ve got.
[Inaudible discussion follows about access to copies of this paper.]
'''Q:''' And seeing husband and wife?
'''MB:''' Yes of course, John, invariably. I’ve never even given an appointment to see one without the other. Not until they’ve been accepted for treatment, for preliminary…
'''Q:''' …entries on that?
*MB I can’t think of any.
*Q And the reasons for choosing AID rather than, say, adoption?
*MB Well you see they simply made up their mind before they come to me. If they (choose adoption)they don’t need to come to me at all. I should say that most of the family doctors have suggested very strongly that adoption would be a better idea…..an absolutely adamantine intention not to adopt which makes them ultimately come.
*Q But they do ask for your views on the AID versus adoption?
*MB Well I suppose we do discuss that in general but since they’ve come to me to discuss AID I mainly discuss AID.
*Q (unintelligible)
*MB Well you see I get a memo from the family doctor. ‘I’m sending you Mr and Mrs ? who desire to have AID.’ The facts are much more than that-if we think it’s a suitable case we’ll take it on.
*Q Yes. And the suitable cases you select?
*MB Well I think one should answer in a negative sense. The one I would rule out. At any rate in the last 10 years I would rule out a case where I was suspicious about a person’s relationship…where there was intelligible disease on either side or where I thought there was an ulterior motive. If I thought there was one I think I’d refuse it. I don’t think one can be sure about that. I mean it would be impossible even with the aid of the family doctor to be perfectly certain that a man wouldn’t give way to his wife because he thought that his son would inherit something if he had an AID child which would otherwise go to his nephew.
*Q So that would be the ‘ulterior motive’ would it?
*MB That’s right. I can’t think of any other ulterior motive going to that length-can you? I imagine that unlikely. I don’t handle the sort of people who are obviously involved in enormous … These are mostly ordinary folk.
*Q Mmm. What about the … of the husband. Do you find a sense that the husband …worries him perhaps?
*MB I don’t think that we’re any of us so simple that we can exclude more than one motive in our lives…Extremely rare. To begin with I don’t think wives would take to the idea on the suggestion of their husbands alone-do you? My feeling is in general that is an absolutely honest-to-goodness desire for children….same as any other couple…It might help him in that sense, help his marriage which of course is very important because if he has a sense of inferiority it doesn’t …the life of the husband does it?
*Q And the demand for it? Increased?
*MB Well you see it depends on whether the doctor’s prepared it or not doesn’t it? Really? I mean I can’t cope with more than a certain number, too much organisation. So instead of doing 50 or 60 I couldn’t do 120! I should be …and I can’t say it has increased, I don’t think the demand for interviews has increased either, increased or decreased interestingly enough. For example, this publicity. We’ve often been asked if it’s meant that a lot of people have cancelled their appointment or whether a lot more have a desire to come and see me about it but-I asked my secretary that and she said that on the whole it has made absolutely no difference to the general level of intake of new patients. In other words of course it isn’t people who read exciting ..reports in papers who come to see me-a far different type from that!
*Q So you’d say the demand is about the same? About the same proportion?
*MB I would say that would be for me to decide wouldn’t it really? I mean the number that I deal with. It is a question of how many I decide to deal with.
*Q Of course. But it would be about the same proportion?
*MB Has it got out of hand any of it?....the doctors will deal with it. They deal with medical work differently from us don’t they? The less we have to do with them the better as far as I’m concerned.
*Q Would anyone like to ask a general question? Or shall we move on? Anyone?
*Approximate number of enquiries?
*MB I think the number of enquiries mostly turn out to be the cases you see so if I say I published a Paper…I think I wrote a Paper ..Fertility Clinic which you remember?
*Q Yes
*MB I had 600 cases in the last 10 years [ 1944-1954 as MB states later]
*Q Could you relate that to the number of enquiries?
*MB I think most of the enquiries turned out to be cases. A few of the cases got stuck but I don’t think very many. It’s a very difficult figure to give isn’t it! I think 90% {of the cases} are acceptable on the whole.
*Q…your Paper?
*MB I think so. They {the cases} were all very carefully done so they’re all valid. ’How many cases were dealt with’’ ? Does that mean over the entire time? That I can’t…I can only give you the 10 years. [ 1944-1954]
*Q So that goes up to?
*MB ’54. It’s been much the same level you see ever since. It works out as a general 50-60 a year. That’s the limit without any doubt…too much really.
*Q And the number of live births?
*MB That’s in this Paper…57.7% success rate. No, that’s the conception rate. No, 56.6%. And then the abortion rate ( I assume MB means miscarriages) is much the same as with any other work. 22.6% Abortion rate. I’d better leave you with the Paper hadn’t I ?
*Q That would help.
*MB 22.6% Abortion rate would have to be subtracted from the conception rate to give you the….
*Q So 22.6% of the 57.7%?
*MB The abortion rate was worked out…I selected 265..you can’t work out a rate for the entire work over many, many years. But that is an absolutely irreducible minimum as far as the abortion rate.
*Q So that’s one in five is it?
*MB Yes. There are very few conceptions where they give up. Very rarely.
*Q How many of them give up before you feel you’ve given them..?
*MB Very, very few.
*Q You can’t give a figure?
*MB I can’t no- but tiny. Provided you can’t find any reason for a woman not conceiving I would go on for as long as she wished to. I have had cases which went on for as much as two years. You see, some of them are 40 or over before they start.
*Q So if you have 50 cases a year and roughly half conceive and the abortion rate is 50% then roughly you have 25 lives a year?
*MB I suppose so.
*Q (Addressing Panel)Do you think we could consider if we might ask Dr Barton if we could have a copy of the final Report of the Home Office?
*MB I don’t know. I wonder if one should really submit that?
(Other interviewer on panel) I think probably not without their approval?
*MB There is a lot of detail which I think really is their material.
*Q We don’t want the (?) on us
*MB No. I mean it’s all going to be available shortly.
(Inaudible discussion follows about this Report’s availability)
*Q Would you be able to provide simple figures?
*MB (Sounding annoyed)To work out abortion rate, success rates, this rate and that rate it’s a very hard piece of work!
*Q Is that the sort of thing that clerical help would make easier for you?
MB I suppose it could be done. If everybody who is involved in this work does the same I think one should say yes. But it would have to be everybody.
*Q We’ll pass on to Donors. Where do you get them from?
*MB Well that was the difficulty at first. What on earth does one do? For the first two or three years I let them choose their own. Usually a husband’s brother or a friend or something but it was so completely fatal that I gave it up. Because I now know there is no doubt that women tend to divert their attentions to the men from whom they conceive. It was quite clear that if the work was to continue it would have to be done on the basis of anonymous donation. Everyone thinks (sic) it’s extraordinary that we don’t do it that way …and (we) dismissed it ( using family or friends) with horror. Much more often a friend (was chosen) unfortunately. Rather difficult because they’ve often got children of their own and they felt, you know, too mixed up in the relationship. The thing was, what to do ,do you see? In the old days it was not easy to find many people who were sympathetic. I started really with a few, just a few, medical colleagues who were interested and who were simply young married men who thought they might be suitable. And they have steadily sent me suitable donors over the years. Most of my Donors come from Doctors and friends. A few come from other sympathisers who are in a position from their work and content to meet suitable people. Most of my Donors are married with children of their own.
*Q From the Donors that are up on offer, you choose them how?
*MB Well, you see the people who act as scouts for me say.. they know what we want. I mean the people are 28-38…I have no access as perhaps Doctor Gentlemen would have to good agricultural stock! (laughter) I’m absolutely bound to choose what I would say…they nearly all live in the area, people who are …businessmen, broadcasters, doctors. Strictly middle-class if I must put it that way. I think it’s a pity in many ways . I mean I envy your possibility of having a choice…but I don’t really. I’ve got to use people living in a small area and who obviously are going to have a different kind of job.
*Q Do you make any attempt to match up?
*MB Yes. I make a very great effort to match up. And that’s one of the reasons why I can’t really take on any vast number. One can only do that if one made no attempt whatsoever to match up.
*Q May I ask what Dr Barton means by ‘matching’ ? What does she try to match?
*MB … or type…colour.
*Q General colouring?
*MB Yes. And er..if I could, I didn’t know if I could, what are called mental ability…
*Q Capabilities? Physical types in a very broad way?
*MB Well if you can’t match their job I think the fundamental …is to use the general appearance. I someone has red hair or unusual eye colour it doesn’t improve matters does it .
*Q No. And the examinations?
*MB Well they have…I only take them if they’ve got a doctor long enough to know their past history. I have an expert to whom I can apply to give the family correct … And then they all have a full examination. X -ray, full blood and any other examination the doctor thinks is necessary.
*Q And the next question-of pay?
MB I’ve said so often in public that I don’t pay them, In exactly the last 3 months I have had 2 young men to whom I have made a small payment . Both are badly off and I felt it was the right thing to do. And I think in the future it is likely that I will have to begin to do it here and there. If a person will , or can be, in a position to do it for nothing then they’ll do it for nothing. Up to now I’ve had all my donations voluntarily.
*Q So you base that really on the financial circumstances rather than on…?
*MB Well you see…..whereas I have drawn so far on voluntary services I feel it is likely in the future that I shall have to alter my…. I don’t think there is any moral reason why not, do you?...I don’t think it has a moral issue. I don’t think anybody…as long as you don’t pay someone for an incentive. The most they …is generosity of effort.
*Q Paying big sums might..?
*MB Paying big sums might…But it may be taken that it’s not in the least a pleasant job. It’s tiresome, you gain nothing by it and then…you’ve got to be examined every 3 months, a full physical examination, you’ve got to go through all these tests. You gain nothing by it and then…then they do in fact feel something, not personal pleasure exactly. They’ve given something to somebody.
*Q Yes.
*MB It may be a boost to their ego, that I wouldn’t know but they’re all so generous. Again I think there’s a …motive in all these things.
*Q Is there a limit on the number of…?
*MB I don’t put a limit on the number of donations if a case goes on for 2 years and he’s willing to go on for 2 years…usually most of them don’t require more than one insemination a month.
*Q But you use a ….
The recording ends abruptly at this point after 31 minutes and 35 seconds